Israel *contents may cause emotions*

Post by **Raeus and Ashra** » January 16th, 2009, 3:40 pm

A montage displaying Israel's recent campaign

Beyond the "internal" affairs, Israel doesn't treat their national neighbors too well either.

Post by **Raeus and Ashra** » January 17th, 2009, 3:55 pm

Israeli Soldier speaks out..

Post by **Lazloth** » January 21st, 2009, 3:54 pm

Holy propaganda batman. FEED THE MACHINE.

Post by **Scopar** » February 12th, 2009, 3:22 am

Not watching the videos (far too lazy) but just two things:

1. The map (2000) is just flat out wrong. I suspect it was drawn during a military incursion.

2. The middle east is VERY complex. It is not described by watching Youtube videos. Palestinians have been marginalised by the West and Arabs. Israel (the nation) has probably contributed more to the Palestinian people (Not justifying any military action). The Arab world has pretty much used the Palestinians as a political tool against the Jews. The West has largely ignored their plight. The circumstances breed a cycle of violence, militia groups of desperate Palestinians and Israel (the country) using it's western support to protect its interests.

I took three middle east politics courses over last and this year, had two very well respected profs and I don't think I still have a grasp of the entire situation. Watching/Reading uncited, biased and emotionally charged videos/articles/images I'm betting doesn't help you really understand it either.

Post by **Raeus and Ashra** » February 12th, 2009, 6:53 am

The point remains: that in the Torah it is against Jewish law for them to set up a Nation.

I don't understand how Israel can claim the religion of Judaism when they don't even adhere to it's teachings and mandates.

Post by **Lazloth** » February 12th, 2009, 12:42 pm

I tried really hard to not even post before, but obviously I didn't fully succeed. Just however, to have it said, you......have no idea what you're talking about really, about any of this. You can't really go out and read one newspaper article or watch one tv show with totally biased information then run around like its fact. This is precisely the game all these sources and politically controlled medias play, in preying on people who don't even have access to real information, and the actuality of this situation is that almost *no one* has access to accurate information.

If you want to talk about facts, whether or not you agree with its existence, Israel DOES exist(an existence that *we*((America and post WW2 allies in particular) ensured), and the general Palestinian effort is essentially a coup being legitimized by being called a reclamation. Even still, and after all the fighting and bullshit Israel DID give up, *to Palestinians* the originally contested portion of land, and yet that still doesn't seem to be enough to satisfy despite it being the original issue. On a completely separate note, the idea of a Palestinian state is currently somewhat ridiculous anyways, since their own government is factioned in and of itself, with the dominant group essentially being a fanatic led terrorist organization and the would-be legitimate government pushed aside.

As for actual fighting, while I won't condone actions on either side, consider it like this: You buy a house. After a year or two, some people move on to your lawn and set up a camp there. First they tell you its their house and they want it, but you paid for it, and everyone else on the block says its yours, so you tell them off. The next day, they start throwing grenades through your windows. The family dog gets blown up, then your daughter. So you try to fight back, but it doesn't work. Every time you go outside they hide in the bushes and you can't find them, only to come back and bomb you more when you turn back. They say fine give us the lawn if we can't have the house, and eventually you give up and let them have the lawn....but the grenades keep coming.

So you tell me, whats the right move now? Should the owner just sit and wait to die? Does it even matter who has legitimate rights to the house?
I don't actually hold myself to either side, heritage regardless, but I know what I would do if someone attacked me.

Taking the word of fanatics and holding it to be true isn't good for anyone's knowledge base, be they fanatic jews, palestinians, or politically fueled media groups like the bbc, npr, etc.

Lastly, with regard to Jewish law, there is nothing prohibiting the establishment of nation. Quite the contrary in fact, a tremendous amount of effort is put forth over millennium to the tune of a return to a Jewish homeland. The actual issue for the particularly radically devout is that the return to a jewish homeland is associated with the coming of the messiah and thus having israel exist now contradicts that, as no messiah has yet come. That in mind, the people riding that horse are equally fanatic to any other religious crackpots in the world, but since their brand of crazy fits with the anti-israel campaigns of other groups suddenly their ramblings merit press.

Post by **Kold** » February 13th, 2009, 12:59 am

I've also taken two Middle East history classes and found them to be pretty eye opening. I find that house analogy to be pretty laughable. It's not quite as simple as the Palestinians selling the Jews a house then attacking them. You forgot to mention the constant expansion of the Jewish controlled areas and the gross human rights violations commited by Israel.

But thanks to politicians, radical christians, the media, and the Israeli PR machine, everyone seems to think of Israel as the victim here. I'm not going to justify or support any acts of terror coming from Palestinians, but it's pretty obvious what it all stems from. Israel gets attacked by Palestinian "terrorists" for the same reason Americans get attacked by Al Qaeda and other terrorists. You can't fuck with a people, rob them, push them off land, and expect them to take it all. The world should have stepped in decades ago and kept Israel in check, but we'll take any ally we can get in the Middle East in an attempt to maintain influence there, even if it means turning a bilnd eye to fucked up shit.

Post by **Scopar** » February 13th, 2009, 3:36 am

Lazloth wrote:I tried really hard to not even post before, but obviously I didn't fully succeed. Just however, to have it said, you......have no idea what you're talking about really, about any of this. You can't really go out and read one newspaper article or watch one tv show with totally biased information then run around like its fact. This is precisely the game all these sources and politically controlled medias play, in preying on people who don't even have access to real information, and the actuality of this situation is that almost *no one* has access to accurate information.

If you want to talk about facts, whether or not you agree with its existence, Israel DOES exist(an existence that *we*((America and post WW2 allies in particular) ensured), and the general Palestinian effort is essentially a coup being legitimized by being called a reclamation. Even still, and after all the fighting and bullshit Israel DID give up, *to Palestinians* the originally contested portion of land, and yet that still doesn't seem to be enough to satisfy despite it being the original issue. On a completely separate note, the idea of a Palestinian state is currently somewhat ridiculous anyways, since their own government is factioned in and of itself, with the dominant group essentially being a fanatic led terrorist organization and the would-be legitimate government pushed aside.

As for actual fighting, while I won't condone actions on either side, consider it like this: You buy a house. After a year or two, some people move on to your lawn and set up a camp there. First they tell you its their house and they want it, but you paid for it, and everyone else on the block says its yours, so you tell them off. The next day, they start throwing grenades through your windows. The family dog gets blown up, then your daughter. So you try to fight back, but it doesn't work. Every time you go outside they hide in the bushes and you can't find them, only to come back and bomb you more when you turn back. They say fine give us the lawn if we can't have the house, and eventually you give up and let them have the lawn....but the grenades keep coming.

So you tell me, whats the right move now? Should the owner just sit and wait to die? Does it even matter who has legitimate rights to the house?
I don't actually hold myself to either side, heritage regardless, but I know what I would do if someone attacked me.

Taking the word of fanatics and holding it to be true isn't good for anyone's knowledge base, be they fanatic jews, palestinians, or politically fueled media groups like the bbc, npr, etc.

Lastly, with regard to Jewish law, there is nothing prohibiting the establishment of nation. Quite the contrary in fact, a tremendous amount of effort is put forth over millennium to the tune of a return to a Jewish homeland. The actual issue for the particularly radically devout is that the return to a jewish homeland is associated with the coming of the messiah and thus having israel exist now contradicts that, as no messiah has yet come. That in mind, the people riding that horse are equally fanatic to any other religious crackpots in the world, but since their brand of crazy fits with the anti-israel campaigns of other groups suddenly their ramblings merit press.

Calling Hamas a general terrorist organisation proves your lack of neutrality and understanding. Hamas is more than a radical group intent on destroying Israel. It is actually quite a democratic group with varying opinions. There are the more radical elements as well the more conservative wings. Hamas has (arguably) done more for the Palestinian people (in terms of addressing their day to day needs; food, shelter, job creation) than any other organisation in the last couple decades.

One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. In the eyes of the oppressed Palestinian people, the Israeli government and military are terrorists. Always keep that in mind. The whole concept of the "Terrorist" label is really ridiculous if you consider the consequences of the actions that both sides make.

To say the idea of a Palestinian state is ridiculous because of the divide in government proves your bias and/or lack of understanding. The situation on the ground, with a geographically divided, segregated communities and impoverished people breeds poor political structure. Of course in the current state that the world has dealt with the middle east a Palestinian state is unlikely, but not necessarily through the fault of the Palestinian people themselves.

To say you don't align yourself to any side is pretty much complete BS by your post. At least be honest.

Post by **Lazloth** » February 13th, 2009, 10:42 am

Its a little silly to call someone biased and then respond with comments that could by the same standards be called biased themselves. That aside, I never defended the actions of any group, only provided a situation in which someone might understand the Israeli side of things, which is an idea that was absent from the content of this post previously. Even considering that, I never claimed Israeli violence was the "right" response, or justified, only understandable. As far as bashing Hamas, I stand by it. Since when does "doing good for people" justify any other actions? Any comparisons I made were between the PLO and Hamas, and I'm inclined to stick with the idea that their methods and policies ultimately hurt the palestinian people more than they help.

With regard to "what it all stems from"...thats not really a proper representation of the situation nor is it applicable to compare it to al queda in america. The issue isn't who beat up, robbed, and pissed off who, the issue is and has always been a land claim. The reason the world hasn't "stepped in to check Israel", is because we put the lands in their hands in the first place. Similarly to your comment, you cant squat on someones land, kill them, scream that it belongs to you, and then expect THEM to take it all. I'm not justifying Israeli atrocity, of which there is plenty, particularly with regard to the treatment of palestinians and their exile around Israel's inception, but by standards we ourselves set, the land belonged to Israel - right or wrong.

And for the record, theres a difference between opinion and bias. My sole palestinian qualm is with the methodology through which they have sought to create their own state, not their right to it.

Post by **Aus** » February 13th, 2009, 2:50 pm

What's really ridiculous is demanding unbiased discussion on a topic like this.

People have opinions. Actions evoke reactions based on life experiences and we can't neglect them.

Post by **Scopar** » February 16th, 2009, 11:05 pm

Aus wrote:What's really ridiculous is demanding unbiased discussion on a topic like this.

People have opinions. Actions evoke reactions based on life experiences and we can't neglect them.

It's impossible to discuss something with someone who already has their mind made up. Bias is impartial judgment. It's not about having an opinion, it's the unwillingness to see the other side. Speak for yourself, I have my preferences and opinion (influenced by life) but if I'm trying to understand something I consciously take everything and throw it out the door.

I'm neither biased nor have a real opinion on the israel/palestinian conflict, no personal ties to either. Any opinion I form will be just for getting the issue resolved, with mutual benefit to both sides.

Post by **Scopar** » February 16th, 2009, 11:16 pm

Lazloth wrote:Its a little silly to call someone biased and then respond with comments that could by the same standards be called biased themselves. That aside, I never defended the actions of any group, only provided a situation in which someone might understand the Israeli side of things, which is an idea that was absent from the content of this post previously. Even considering that, I never claimed Israeli violence was the "right" response, or justified, only understandable. As far as bashing Hamas, I stand by it. Since when does "doing good for people" justify any other actions? Any comparisons I made were between the PLO and Hamas, and I'm inclined to stick with the idea that their methods and policies ultimately hurt the palestinian people more than they help.

With regard to "what it all stems from"...thats not really a proper representation of the situation nor is it applicable to compare it to al queda in america. The issue isn't who beat up, robbed, and pissed off who, the issue is and has always been a land claim. The reason the world hasn't "stepped in to check Israel", is because we put the lands in their hands in the first place. Similarly to your comment, you cant squat on someones land, kill them, scream that it belongs to you, and then expect THEM to take it all. I'm not justifying Israeli atrocity, of which there is plenty, particularly with regard to the treatment of palestinians and their exile around Israel's inception, but by standards we ourselves set, the land belonged to Israel - right or wrong.

And for the record, theres a difference between opinion and bias. My sole palestinian qualm is with the methodology through which they have sought to create their own state, not their right to it.

You probably only know about Hamas through the media, but they have been the backbone for day to day services in Palestine for sometime. That's how they rose to popular power, not quite on the destroy Israel mandate that the western medias have portrayed. Remember Palestinians are still refugees, living in pretty much terrible conditions neglected by the Arab and West for the most part. Can you not see Hamas' actions as understandable in the same light as Israel's are?

As for the land claim, that itself is quite complex. Remember the underlying issue here is you have two conflicting religions. Jews believed Abraham was promised the land by God (through descendants especially Jacob) while Mohammed declared the territory Islam. When religion comes into play, the least liberal of all institutions we've created, you are bound to have conflict. Can't understand the blaming of Palestinians for "squatting" on Israel's land. If you're going to argue that Jews have the true claim to it first, then that's pretty much just a dead end because both sides have claims based on their faiths. If anyone is to be directly blamed for the modern mess it's probably the British, now exasperated by modern countries in the world.

Post by **Xerred** » February 21st, 2009, 2:47 am

This world is in great need of religious consolidation.

Post by **greekrefugee** » February 21st, 2009, 8:15 am

And a unified quantum theory.

Post by **Aus** » February 21st, 2009, 2:04 pm

Xerred wrote:This world is in great need of religious consolidation.

How about this one:

"There is no god"

Vis Maior

Israel contents may cause emotions

Israel contents may cause emotions

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